Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Novaliis

Stara Grčka

Recommended Posts

Ovu temu bi trebalo razdvojiti, po meni, od kritsko-mikenske civilizacije, jer i o njoj ima dosta toga da se kaze posebno. Tako da ce se otvoriti i ta tema ako bude trebalo.

Ovde mozemo diskutovati o svemu vezanom za pojam stare Grcke- svakodnevni zivot, ratovi, polisi, politika, kolonije, vazne licnosti, kultura, mitologija..

Za pocetak, ostavicu link za jedan lepi prikaz porodice starogrckih bogova- Greek Gods Family Tree

 

Koju literaturu predlazete?

Mi smo na faksu radili Struvea i Kalistova, ako bih spomenuo ostale autore, zasao bih u druga podrucja (Papazoglu za Helenizam, Cedvik za mikenski svet).

Sto se tice mitologije, tu vec ima dosta knjiga a posebno bih preporucio Roberta Grejvsa :da: Otisao je dalje od ostalih u analizi mitova.

Vasa misljenja, stavovi..? :D

Sparta ili Atina? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Atina, ja sam demokrata :)

 

obozavam starogrcku istoriju, inace studiram pravo, uglavnom sam u poslednje vreme (pre 2 godine tj.) citao kako su funkcionisali Grcki polisi itd.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Teba. Tebanci su na kraju dohakali Spartancima :rockdevil:, siti njihovog kurcenja po Peloponezu. Lepo dodjose i ispickarase ih samo tako. I tu bese kraj Sparte.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Da i pokazali da boj ne bije samo srce u junaka vec i inovacije u strategiji i taktici

Cuveni Epaminondin "kosi stroj" u kombinaciji sa konjicom se pokazao kao ubitacan za spartanske hoplite koji stolecima nisu znacajnije menjali nacin ratovanja

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Svi su Grci, znaci i Spartanci, bili fegeti u manjoj ili vecoj meri. Nije se to uvek zavrsavalo snosajem. Stavise, retko se to zavrsavalo snosajem izmedju dva muskarca...Tebanci su imali cetu od 300 dusa koja je bila i odgovorna za propast Sparte, a cetu su cinili 150 homosexualnih parova...znaci ne bilo ko, neko bas osvedoceni fegeti u ljubavi jedan sa drugim. Rezon je bio, islio da je Platon to napisao u Simpozijumu, da ljubavnici nece napustiti bojno polje dok je onaj drugi ziv. A ako i umre, onda ce i onaj drugi da umre jer mu nije vise do zivota. Ta ceta, zvana Sacred Band Of Thebes, je 40-tak godina bila nepobediva. Dok je nije onaj drugi grcki feget, Aleksandar Veliki, nekako sredio. Kompletno unistio.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Nectar

Pa spartanci su kako ja ucih-imali mogucnost da se ozene-kad bi imali dvadesetak godina-ali problem je bio sto ne bi mogli i da zive sa svojim porodicama sve dok ne napune 30-bukvalno bi bili izolovani od zenskog sveta, pa kapiram da nije ni cudo sto su morali da se gejisu usput. A onda kada bi valjda stekli puna prava tog bratstva jelte onda su opet morali da idu na sastanke preko dana itd.dok je zenama bilo zabranjeno da provedu noc van kuce(sem kada je neki praznik zaboravih koji) jer je to bila uzasna sramota-i onda bi doslo i do razvoda..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A postoje cak i indicije da su u Sparti i zene bile naklonjene svom polu, bas zato sto su bivale zapostavljene od sttrane muskaraca.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Svaki spartanac je MORAO da se ozeni. Nocu su isli da karaju zene kuci. Obavezno. Ne svaku noc, kad su zene najplodnije je najbolje. Inace ne bi ni imali poroda. Spartanke su istorijski poznate kao najlepse zene na svetu svog vremena (kao sto su Spartnaci bili poznati kao najlepsi muskarci svog doba). Zbog 'prirodne' selekcije, tojest bacanja nepodobne dece u onu jamu.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

da je samo neko boravio u toj jami i skupljao tu odbachenu decu mogao je da napravi armiju unholy aprtan miniona koji bi svojim izgledom plashili armije iz azije

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Bata Životinja
da je samo neko boravio u toj jami i skupljao tu odbachenu decu mogao je da napravi armiju unholy aprtan miniona koji bi svojim izgledom plashili armije iz azije

 

:) :) :)

 

The%20305DVD.jpg

 

 

 

inace, spartanci nisu bili ''lijepi'',posto je tako postojao i jedna evropski vladar Filip Lijepi, lijepo samo zato sto je bio prva beba u kraljevskoj lozi koja poslije nekoliko generacija nije bila retardirana.

 

dakle, sigurno su bili zdravi i bez idiota i raznih degenerisanih oblika, ali to se ne odnosi na neuk fizicku ljepotu.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The myth of homosexuality in Ancient Greece

 

Of course homosexuality existed in Hellas, just as it has existed, and will continue to exist, everywhere and at all times in human history. However, while it did exist, it was never legally sanctioned, thought to be a cultural norm, or engaged in, without risk of serious punishment, including exile and death.

 

It was Walter Pater (1870's a poet and tutor) he and his band that just out of a weird coincidence were all homosexuals, originally began this fiasco of a theory in Oxford.

We find them introducing a totally new "theory", in which Platonic love has nothing to do with "psyche" but is totally based on physical attraction.

 

Later we find a list of want to-be "historians" of Hellenic sexuality, see: Michel Foucault, John Boswell, John Winkler and David Halperin that were or are all homosexuals striving to make some connection between homos and Hellenism. The reason, of course, is simple. The Hellenes have always been viewed as a model of civilisation. So what better way to justify their "sick nature" than by connecting it to the greatness of the Hellenic civilization and by doing so, legitimize same-sex?

 

 

While today with the words 'heterosexual' and 'homosexual' (note that both terms including lesbianism were coined after Pater and Co's fiasco of a theory) we simply denote the sexual preference of an individual. The ancient Hellenes on the other hand, while never had absolutely no form of definition for 'heterosexuals'.. used the term 'kinaidos'.. in order to describe 'homosexuals' and their preference..

 

Why this is of some interest/significance.. as I said while the terms today simply define one's sexual preference, the term 'kinaidos' actually shows us what they believed.. as Epicletus has written, 'the beginning of knowledge comes from the analysis of names'... so we have :

 

'kinaidos' = “he who “kinei thn aido” from :

“kineo”= ” to move , to meddle with things sacred” and

“aidos” = “the personification of a conscience, of shame”

 

So in reality the very word's meaning is 'he who provokes shame'... we see to speak of acceptance when they claimed that homosexuals 'provoke shame' is ridiculous, but since assumptions are of no value, let's look into the issue...

 

Now, one of the basic arguments promoted by these self proclaimed 'historians' of ancient Hellenic sexuality is found in the texts. They use the terms "erastes- eromenos' in their fiasco by giving the translation of 'lover and the 'passive member' of the 'relationship'..

 

If we were to spend a min. to read what the texts tell us, we'd see that this translation is obviously flawed (I'd say intentionally)...

 

Plato, Euthydemus 282b

“there is no disgrace, Cleinias, or reprobation in making this a reason for serving and being a slave to either one's lover or any man, and being ready to perform any service that is honorable in one's eagerness to become wise.”

 

Plato’s Symposium,184b

 

“it is our rule that, just as in the case of the lovers it was counted no flattery or scandal for them to be willingly and utterly enslaved to their favorites, so there is left one sort of voluntary thralldom which is not scandalous; I mean, in the cause of virtue.

It is our settled tradition that when a man freely devotes his service to another in the belief that his friend will make him better in point of wisdom, it may be, or in any of the other parts of virtue, this willing bondage also is no sort of baseness or flattery. Let us compare the two rules”

 

 

Xenophon Symposium 8.8

[8]“Now, I have always felt an admiration for your character, but at the present time I feel a much keener one, for I see that you are in love with a person who is not marked by dainty elegance nor wanton effeminacy, but shows to the world physical strength and stamina, virile courage and sobriety. Setting one's heart on such traits gives an insight into the lover's character.”

 

 

Xenophon Symposium

[26] Furthermore, the favorite who realizes that he who lavishes physical charms will be the lover's sovereign will in all likelihood be loose in his general conduct; but the one who feels that he cannot keep his lover faithful without nobility of character will more probably give heed to virtue. [27] But the greatest blessing that befalls the man who yearns to render his favorite a good friend is the necessity of himself making virtue his habitual practice. For one cannot produce goodness in his companion while his own conduct is evil, nor can he himself exhibit shamelessness and incontinence and at the same time render his beloved self-controlled and reverent"

 

Plato’s Republic 403b

“may not come nigh, nor may lover and beloved who rightly love and are loved have anything to do with it?” “No, by heaven, Socrates,” he said, “it must not come nigh them.” “Thus, then, as it seems, you will lay down the law in the city that we are founding, that the lover may kiss and pass the time with and touch the beloved as a father would a son, for honorable ends, if he persuade him.”

 

All of these texts give a meaning of obtaining knowledge and virtue, none of them refer to anything sexual .

 

 

It has been argued that artifacts have many homosexual scenes depicted. If we are to look at vase art, we also come to interesting conclusions.

 

In his book, K.J Dover (considered as one of the authorities on ancient Hellenic sexuality. LOL) presents a total of 600 vases.

What is very interesting is the fact that only 20-25 (I am really generous here) can be considered to depict something sexual. The rest of them 575!!! have nothing to do with the topic in question. Yet he manages to connect them with some actually ridiculous assumptions. example:

In artifact E373 the young man depicted has a tiny penis but a normal scrotum, in E368 his scrotum is enormous,

In another vase he mentions that "the hoop and walking stick carry their own symbolism" (what is the symbolism ?????)

What about this well known artifact that depicts Achilles mending Patroclus' wound... he uses the same 'penis argument' once again..

 

 

It is also interesting to note that the exact theory that both Dover and Reinsberg have introduced, is that, during these alleged homosexual acts, actual penetration NEVER did take place!! because the ancient Hellenes believed that it was disgraceful.

Simple proof of this are the vase paintings found after the Persian defeat, where we find the Hellenes coming up to the bent over Pesian fully aroused. Clearly depicting domination.

 

So the question that must be answered is: what kind of homo paradise was Hellas when we never did have any kind of penetration?

 

 

If we were to look at Aeschynes' Against Timarchus, we find a list of laws..

 

Of course many conveniently argue that the text and laws refer only to prostitution.. but we find Aeschynes using the law of "grafi etairisios"..

 

"etairisios" from "etairos"= comrade, companion. we also find the well known "hetaires", what we considered today, thanks to all this mistranslation as whores, but the word clearly gives a different meaning, so they should actually be considered companions or I think the more appropriate meaning would be something similar to mistress.

 

If the argument was only about his selling his body (as a whore does) then the law should have used the term "pornh" from "pernimi"= "to sell" and has the meaning of whore, prostitute.

 

The very FACT that in 1.29 Aeschynes uses the words

"H peporneumenos,physin, H etairikos =

"either prostituted or has became a "comrade/companion" (in short, his *****)

 

Prove that the laws mentioned apply to both male prostitutes and homosexuals..

 

Some of the laws mentioned :

 

a) The teachers of the boys shall open the school-rooms not earlier than sunrise, and they shall close them before sunset. No person who is older than the boys shall be permitted to enter the room while they are there, unless he be a son of the teacher, a brother, or a daughter's husband. If any one enter in violation of this prohibition, he shall be punished with death. The superintendents of the gymnasia shall under no conditions allow any one who has reached the age of manhood to enter the contests of Hermes together with the boys. A gymnasiarch who does permit this and fails to keep such a person out of the gymnasium, shall be liable to the penalties prescribed for the seduction of free-born youth. Every choregus who is appointed by the people shall be more than forty years of age.

 

 

B) If any Athenian shall outrage a free-born child, the parent or guardian of the child shall prosecute him before the Thesmothetae, and shall demand a specific penalty. If the court condemn the accused to death, he shall be delivered to the constables and be put to death the same day. If he be condemned to pay a fine, and be unable to pay the fine immediately, he must pay within eleven days after the trial, and he shall remain in prison until payment is made. The same action shall hold against those who abuse the persons of slaves.

 

c) If any Athenian shall have prostituted his person, he shall not be permitted to become one of the nine archons, nor to discharge the office of priest, nor to act as an advocate for the state, nor shall he hold any office whatsoever, at home or abroad, whether filled by lot or by election; he shall not be sent as a herald; he shall not take part in debate, nor be present at the public sacrifices; when the citizens are wearing garlands, he shall wear none; and he shall not enter within the limits of the place that has been purified for the assembling of the people. If any man who has been convicted of prostitution act contrary to these prohibitions, he shall be put to death.

 

Aeschines then summoned the jury to remember their (Athenian) ancestors, who were "stern ... toward all shameful conduct," and considered the purity of their children and fellow citizens to be "precious." He goes on to give an example regarding the way the Lacedaemonians (Spartans) felt about such matters. He justifies his praising the Spartans by quoting an old Athenian saying which teaches that it is "well to imitate virtue even in a foreigner."

 

 

There are many more quotes, texts and proof of an intentional manipulation of the words/terms in order to present something that although did exist was never considered a norm..

 

As mentioned above the terms 'homosexual-ity', 'heteroseuxal-ity' were coined after W. Pater and Co presented their theory. The story for the term 'lesbian-ism' is not that different.

 

Connected to the great poet Sappho, this specific 'circle' had managed to give the meaning of homosexuality to 'Sapphic' which as originally used to describe the poetry form/style presented by her and copied by many later Hellenic and Roman poets..

Sappho's poems aren't actually described as erotic (not in the conventional form) but as describing a form of "terror", she never describes the feelings as we usually see with terms of joy, happiness, etc.. but as a torment. She never describes the joyful feeling seen in others but an emptiness, pain and misery left from immense passion...

 

Again we find that only after the 1890's is the homosexual theory connected to Sappho and her poems.. Due to a little mix up because of the double-meaning given to the term 'Sapphic'. We find that they came up with the term "lesbian". Since then the island of Lesbos has become a "symbol" for all female homosexuals in every language of the world. All this because of the existence of Sappho.

 

The major problem for all of these self-proclaimed historians/researchers, is that we only have 1 whole poem by her, saved by Dionysos of Hallicarnasos.. while the rest are mere fragments that hardly allow us to understand the topic, let alone see homosexual emotions..

There are more than enough texts that mention Sappho and provide information of her life. We find Ovid, Athenaios and Suidas among others, speaking openly of her great love with Phaon.

We know for a fact that she was a mother and wife that wrote "epithalamia"= "wedding songs" that spoke, not of lesbian affairs but of the beauty of young girls that were about to become wife's and mothers themselves.

 

Among these self proclaimed specialists of Hellenic sexuality we fall upon yet another renown homosexual named Yves Battistini. He wrote a book about Sappho where he quotes a part of a poem written by Anacreondos where we find him translating:

 

"προς δ'αλλον τινα χασκει" and in Latin font "pros d'allon tina haskei"

 

which when correctly translated gives the meaning of:

"towards someone else she giggles"

 

but this want to-be translated it as:

" but the item of her passion is something else, a girl"

 

Anyone can clearly see the well orchestrated plan promoted by homosexuals for the reason given above..

Many have made similar claims about the Thebans forming the so-called sacred band that allegedly was formed by some 150 homosexual couples..

 

Interesting that when we look at the original text of Plato's Symposium and 'Phaedrus' that many have connected to the myth surrounding the composition of the band, we find the translated texts to mention :

 

"an army should be made up of lovers and their loves"

 

When we take a look at the original text you find:

 

"genesthai e stratopedon eraston te kai paidikon"

 

So, we find the alleged lover theory but NO eromenos = (the "passive" lover according to the stupid theory they support)

but we find (paidikon) that means (a child, boyish, still in use today in modern Hellenic see "paidi") a very common word in ancient Hellenic texts.

 

What all these pseudo-scholars avoid to notice is the strategic innovation of Gorgidas. Which was to change the form of Theban battle tactics. Until then the young (students)=(strength) were the front line and the older (tutor) = (knowledge) were in the rear.

He mixed them, combining the strength of the young with the knowledge of the old thus, creating an unbeatable army.

 

 

If we were to look into the local Theban myths, we find that the first seen "straying from normality" would be Laios, Laios, known to most because of his son Oidipus.

Laios was the first "kunaidos" according to Hellenic mythology/history.

Laios had abducted and raped Chrysippos, for this, Pelops cursed him to be killed by his own son.

So we find that the first ever recorded "pederast" was cursed and due to this curse, his whole family line was wiped out thanks to his "unnatural activity".

 

We find that Oidipus married his mother (without knowing it) she kills herself and he blinds himself.

The 4 children born by this unwanted marriage are also doomed, the brothers Eteocles and Polynices fall in battle killed by each other's hand. Antigone is sentenced to death and Ismene asks for the same fate as her sister.

 

Justice is served for what their sick grandfather (Laios) had done.

 

When we know of such customs being passed down from generation to generation and plays written pertaining this exact myth. It is hard to believe that the Thebans or any other Hellenic city would go against these traditions..

 

To top this off, all we need to do is just read what Philip said, when he saw them lying dead after the battle at Chaeronea.

 

'Perish miserably they who think that these men did or suffered aught disgraceful!'"

-----------

 

A similar notion pertaining to the life of the Spartans has also been developed, once again all needed to be done is read what has been left to us in the Hellenic anthology..

 

 

Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaimonians

2.13

 

[13] The customs instituted by Lycurgus were opposed to all of these. If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy's soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy's outward beauty, he banned the connexion as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other.

 

 

Xenophon, Symposium (The Banquet)

8.70

 

But the men of Lacedaemon, holding that "if a man but lay his hand upon the body and for lustful purpose, he shall thereby forfeit claim to what is beautiful and noble"--do, in the spirit of their creed, contrive to mould and fashion their "beloved ones" to such height of virtue,[71] that should these find themselves drawn up with foreigners, albeit no longer side by side with their own lovers,[72] conscience will make desertion of their present friends impossible. Self-respect constrains them: since the goddess whom the men of Lacedaemon worship is not "Shamelessness," but "Reverence.

 

 

Plutarch’s Lives Lycurgus

XVII 4

 

Their lovers and favorers, too, had a share in the young boy’s honor or disgrace; and there goes a story that one of them was fined by the magistrates, because the lad whom he loved cried out effeminately as he was fighting.

 

 

 

Plutarch’s Lives Lycurgus

XIV. 4

 

Nor was there any thing shameful in this nakedness of the young women; modesty attended them, and all wantonness was excluded. It taught them simplicity and a care for good health, and gave them some taste of higher feelings, admitted as they thus were to the field of noble action and glory. Hence it was natural for them to think and speak as Gorgo, for example, the wife of Leonidas, is said to have done, when some foreign lady, as it would seem, told her that the women of Lacedæmon were the only women of the world who could rule men; “With good reason,” she said, “for we are the only women who bring forth men.”

 

 

Claudius Ailianus 'History' III.12

 

Spartan 'love' had nothing to do with shamefulness, if there ever was any such a su****ion since they would have brought shame upon Sparta. The result would be the exile of both of the loss of their lives..

 

 

Maximus of Tyre "Declamations' 20.e

 

'Any male Sparta that admires a Lakonian youth, admires him only as we would a very beautiful statue. For bodily pleasures of this type are brought upon them by Hubris and are forbidden.

Sources: Adonis Georgiades' "Debunking the Myth of Homosexuality in Ancient Greece" and "Eros", The Myth of Ancient Greek Sexuality" by Bruce S. Thornton also Aeschynes, Plato, Xenophon.... the entire Hellenic anthology .

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

da je samo neko boravio u toj jami i skupljao tu odbachenu decu mogao je da napravi armiju unholy aprtan miniona koji bi svojim izgledom plashili armije iz azije

 

:) :) :) :)

 

Inace, moj glas ide Sparti, zato sto su se suprotstavili Persiji, Turskoj i Izraelu, predvodio ih Gerard Butler i jedno-oki Dzek Faromir, zato sto je iranski kralj tada biJo Neo-nazi gej aktivista mulatskog porekla sa afinitetom prema pirsinzima (tada se naveliko slusao darkwave synth-punk i jazz, popularno medju mladima), i zato sto je slika bila neobicna.. jedino mi se ne svidja sto ga je promasio Kralj Butler sa svojim kopljem, tj. malo mu sasuo kod usne... :no:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Citajte anticke drame i bavite se njima, tu je sjajno odrazen zivot Helade i politicki i religiozni i socijalni i emotivni.

I Hesiodovu Teogoniju, na primer.

A sto se istorije tice- Herodot, Tukidid( Istorija peloponeskog rata).

I naravno, filozofe, narocito Platona i Aristotela i predsokratovce.

 

Kod Djurica je lepo uradjena knjizevnost, medjutim, to nije suvo predanje o knjizevnosti ve cima i istoriografije, retorike, pa i kroz same Homerove epove mnogo toga receno.

U sustini, kad bi se jos kompariralo sa Rimom da se dobije celokupna silka Antike.

 

I citajte Platonovu Gozbu. :wub:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

r. graves ftw!

moguce je da od svih civilizacija (bivsih i postojecih) najvise misljenje imam upravo o grckoj. cini mi se da je njihov sistem vrednosti, uzevsi sve u obzir - ogranicenost izvora informacija u prvom redu, mozda najmanje licemeran.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

r. graves ftw!

moguce je da od svih civilizacija (bivsih i postojecih) najvise misljenje imam upravo o grckoj. cini mi se da je njihov sistem vrednosti, uzevsi sve u obzir - ogranicenost izvora informacija u prvom redu, mozda najmanje licemeran.

 

Onda jako malo znash o svim civilizacijama. Posebno bivsim.

Grcka je civilizacije prepisivaca, po licimerju drugo mesto posle rimljana.

 

To sto su iz nje srecom pretekli neki veliki umovi, nije nista kolika su znanja petekla iz drugih. Znanja koja su krojila te velike umove.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

oh, imam obozavatelja.

 

Ne nemas, nego si aktivna. Al ko po obicaju nemas konkretan odgovor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...